Rob Bell is a Universalist
I just heard him say it on the ‘Live Stream‘ (recorded) of his ‘Love Wins’ interview. When asked if he was a universalist, BELL said, “No, if you mean by universalist there is a giant cosmic arm that sweeps you in (to heaven) whether you want to be there or not…(but) if you mean…all sorts of people (religion/beliefs) who want to be there, (then) yes.”
Bell then manipulates the words of Christ to say that Jesus would agree with his preposterous statement, saying, “This was central to His (Jesus’) teaching.”
Towards the end of the interview Bell alludes to a Bible passage regarding a gate (to heaven) that has been left open and, “Wink, wink, nudge, nudge,” there’s another way to get into Heaven besides absolute faith in Christ Jesus.
What Bible is Rob Bell reading?
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8-9
There you have it folks, Rob Bell is a false teacher — wildly popular, but nevertheless, a false teacher. The Bible could not be any clearer — only those who believe and follow Jesus the Christ get to Heaven. To make matters worse, Bell claims the reality of a hell ‘right now’ on earth saying, “We see hell on earth all around us all the time.” Later on in the interview he adds, “Hell is real…we see it (on earth) everyday.”
Things might be awful (at times) Mr. Bell, but this is NOT hell.
Later on, an audience member (a pastor) was confused if Bell meant there was no real hell (not on earth, but a place of condemnation), and Bell completely side-stepped the question, only making a reference to his ‘hell on earth’ conception (Bell took a moment to talk about a group at his church where people can freely discuss their stories of the earthly hell that they have gone through).
The interviewer then puts to Bell the hypothetical scenario that she is an atheist, albeit a ‘good person;’ “Am I going to heaven?” she asks.
Bell answers the question by proclaiming, “The essence of His (Jesus) Gospel is, ‘Trust Me, I’ll take care of it.'”
He adds, “Jesus is exclusive,” citing John 14:6, where Jesus says, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me,’ but then says that Jesus is also inclusive (speaking for Jesus now), “Be careful, I’m doing something for everybody.”
That’s heresy folks — he essentially just called Jesus a liar.
The interviewer, a Jew, shares that she is offended by the concept of Jesus being the only way (the mechanism, as she puts it), to which Bell responds that there is a lot of ‘space’ in the Bible (unsaid things) where (the implication is) we can fill in the blanks.
It seems apparent that Bell spends more time reading the white parts of the Bible then the black parts.
Bell is then asked if it is works or grace that gets a person to Heaven. Amazingly (and inaccurately) Bell responds, “Ultimately, we’re all okay.”
When asked why others thinks his latest book is so controversial, Bell says, “As soon as you say to this little club, the orthodox ones, ‘I think it (the path to salvation) might be a little wider than that,’ you’re threatening whole systems…the Christian (path) is wide and leaves lots of room for variant perspectives…it’s very diverse and wide.”
Not according to my Bible…
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14
Bell then said that the way the Christian thinks and the way that he lives, that’s the good news (the Gospel). No it’s not. The Gospel message is all about Jesus, His dying on a cross for our sins and His resurrection–it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we do and everything to do with what He did!
Finally, another member of the audience raised yet another question about hell. Bell puts forth a scenario where a person (at an altar call) rejects an offer to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and then leaves church and gets run over by a car. Bell says that its a common belief that God would then condemn that person. He adds that if this were true and if God were a man, “We would have Him arrested,” implying that a loving God would never do such a thing.
Folks, I didn’t want to watch this interview. I already sensed that Rob Bell was a liar and a false teacher, but in fairness, I had based my opinion on what other scholars had said about him. I thought it was best that I check it out for myself. So I did.
Bell’s own words condemn him.
Don’t take my word for it, watch the interview yourself HERE.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
I would recommend that we shun Rob Bell. His teachings and his books have no place whatsoever in the Christian realm or the body of Christ, His church. Ignore him and pray for him.
I have for years supported Compassion Intl, multiple kids and promoted the organization to others.
I have seen the same interview you cite multiple times and many others since plus blogs and read the book (which you apparently had not given your 3-15 publish date. I am disappointed in your analysis which to my ear is false. I am doubly disappointed as to apparent glee and emotional high you take in naming a Gospel preaching, brother thusly: “I already sensed that Rob Bell was a liar and a false teacher.”
Disagree, fine. Here is how it is done:
http://www.premier.tv/Top%20Videos-%20Rob%20Bell.aspx
Get a little class. And show alittle terminidty as you take on being judge over God and executioner over a God fearing Pastor!
Frankly if that is who you are then I can dust off my feet and walk. Question, “compassiondave” , should I then walk from Compassion Intl? You represent them and on this page associate them with yourself and to your opinion. Why would I continue to with Compassion Intl if this who are who they are?
LikeLike
I take no joy in identifying Rob Bell as a liar and false teacher. The truth is that it pains me to the core. But what pains me more is that he is leading people astray (in giving) them a false hope of Heaven and salvation via ‘another’ way. Christians are called to identify these wolves and that is what I have done, but make no mistake about it…I am not glee-filled.
I applaud your association with Compassion International and I would encourage you to maintain your sponsorships. Please do not spite the children because a) you don’t agree with me or b) have misconstrued my demeanor.
LikeLike
In short. Rob Bell, whatever his motive, definitions or thinking, is ALLOWING people to believe that Jesus is not the only way to heaven. Especially vulnerable are those who do not know the word of God and can therefore not test the validity of what he is saying. He is KEEPING millions from salvation. I don’t need to know any more than that to know that what he is doing is wrong.
LikeLike
Why is ‘universalism’ a lie? The Word of God speaks for itself–read and meditate upon only the black parts of the following portions of scripture:
“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)
“There is one body and one Spirit … one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and find pasture … I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” (John 10:9)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” (John 11:25)
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” (John 8:12)
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35)
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)
“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)
“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)
“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)
“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)
LOVINGLY, God provided for us ONE PATH. In contrast, ‘many paths’ would have been a cruel thing to do. God loves us so much, He made it as simple as possible–just one way.
Consider this scenario: If your child got off the school bus at the wrong stop and called you on the phone for directions home, would you give her 10 or more choices ~or~ would you lovingly give her the quickest and safest and most direct route home? Frankly, to confuse the child with every possible route would be rather mean (unloving).
God loves us so much more so, and He, in LOVE, gave us One Way home.
LikeLike
The best lies are those that most closing resemble the truth. Ever listen to Oprah’s personal views on religion [and how] ridiculous they are? Sadly, Rob Bell’s theories support Oprah’s nonsense and both [of them] are leading folks astray; leading folks away from the only One who can save them.
LikeLike
Many of us seem to missing the point of Love wins!
Bell is not teaching you don’t need Christ…. He’s teaching that God does not codemn us to hell, we condemn ourselves!
Bell is not writing new thoughts on heaven– read C.S. Lewis.
Bell does not deny a hell. He claims there is a current hell and an afterlife hell.
The point isn’t everyone will enter heaven but that people WILL choose hell, but stealing the phrase from C.S. Lewis the Great Divorce– “They would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven”.
Frankly i wonder how many of us, if God really DOES say anybody who wants to enter may will say to God “What? I’ve served you during my life and you don’t give me something more than this person?”
And i wonder when he says “My son (or daughter) everything i have had has always been yours” (see the parable of the prodigal son), and if we will scoff and say if this person can get in i’d rather go somewhere else or if we will be excited for our neighbors and loved ones we failed to show christ to.
Or i wonder how a teaching that maybe God’s grace is more sufficient than our inability to convey to all people the truth of God’s grace and love (and thus ‘lead them to Christ’ a.k.a. just say a prayer and act like massive a-holes still) could really lead people astray????
Also…. In this blog, Bell defined universalism in a way different than how it seems we’ve tried color him– he does not say his universalism = all saved. He says in so far as it means all who want to be there he is univesalist…. see C.S. Lewis.
Course… If you’re ready to call C.S.Lewis a heritic, and throw out the greatest theologian of 20th century, and throw away the Chronicals of Narnia… and throw away The Screwtape letters.. Mere Christianity… etc… Maybe, and i really really mean this, we will ll all be going to hell then, considering his pervasive influence in ALL the church today.
You Disagree… That’s fine, and healthy. But throw a person to the wolves by purposefully twisting his words to fit with a preconcieved notion you already had (“I had based my opinion on what other scholars had said about him”– as a human we tend to only read people of like mind, and it appears we are ignoring very credible scholors who have said the OPPISATE of what is said, so it betrays a bias)….. I am quite saddened by this. Where is love and grace that God has commanded us to spread? I worry that we are appearing to be more the wolf in sheeps clothing to the world than Bell through this division by claiming to come in the name of the God of love, and rushing to condemn a man that it appears few have actually read first hand. I disagree with much he says, but he is not promoting universalism, and he is not postulating a new theological insight that Church fathers– i.e. the people that set rules and boundries to the faith we claim to adhere to– voiced their validity 1900 years ago.
Further even if he had taught somethign contrary to scripture (which is apparent he did not!)…. When Paul says what he said in Galatians 1:8-9, do we need to realize he’s NOT refering to the New Testament? IT DIDN’T YET EXIST, and in fact the letter to the Galatians was written largely before the rest of the NT. To fail to realize the influences of the NT we appear to be using scriptur to fit our own preconcieved bias and notions. This bothers me greatly, we as Christians should be of truth and love, not prejudice and bias….
And i only say this because I still love you all! Frankly, as largely as these decrees of heresy are spreading, it is easier to simply ignore the comments online and allow them to continue. But Christ demands better of us all. He (Bell) may be wrong, but is he really serving a purpose opposed to the true God? No… And he is as deserving of our (not simply distaste veiled in loving talk) grace and love as we are of God’s– and that is a purposeful reminder that we will be judged according to how we judge, and ultimately scripture shows we will be judged by the measure of our love.
I pray for Rob Bell. I hope deeply in my heart that God will have special allowance for people who would serve him if they truely met him, and i mourn my failures in being his messenger. I pray that Bell is right in that regard. I pray that he can be a messager of light to world that distrusts us, and i pray that his teaching can illuminate in our communities our flaws so that we can pursue Christ. And i pray that where he is wrong, God will forgive and correct.
But i also pray for you. This divsion is literally heartbreaking for me. We as Christians have become overly judgemental, and we fail constantly to be open to a God that ultimately can not be fully comprehended. There is a lot of praise for what is written here, but personally i’m ashamed– “Narrow is the way” already, but why must we make it even narrower? And over somethign like the after life? Truely one of the least consequential portions of our faith. I would honestly go to hell myself if it would go to ensure the salvation of a person i don’t know.
Isn’t it really, as Rob Bell talks about in his book, more important to try our entire lives to fullfill Christs own prayer to have earth be like heaven, than to continue to be minions of hell on earth and spread hell?
Yup… that’s what he’s really teaching in Love Wins..> The most important heaven and hell is their location in the here and now. It is what we do with the life we are given NOW. (but he never denys the New Jerusalem, or even hell, instead he takes scripture and shows how scripture REALLY paints hell.)
I’m probably rambling at this point. But i’m passionate. I’m heartbroken at the state of the Universal Church and how we are soooo quick to cut down things that actually have basis in scripture and in Christian teachings… We are a mass wound of pus, i hope God can heal us soo.
LikeLike
Agreed, he has narrowed his definition of universalism, but nevertheless, he says that anyone, regardless of faith or lack thereof, who wants to one day be in Heaven gets to go to Heaven.
Not only is that a lie, it serves to mislead the 4 billion or so people who do not know the only way is found in Christ Jesus.
That’s criminal.
LikeLike
[…] Rob Bell is a Universalist – He Said it Himself (compassiondave.wordpress.com) […]
LikeLike
@ Ed (starting a new reply because the space was getting to narrow)…
Reading your last 2 responses (regarding love), one might believe that you and I agree, but alas we do not.
While I agree God is love, I do not agree with your notion (and Rob Bell’s notion) that God’s love stretches to a point that allows non-believers access to the Father and Heaven. By your account (and of course Bell’s too), you believe that Osama bin Laden is now in Heaven. Why? Because (Bell says) that’s where he wanted to be.
God is love, but he is also just.
For “God so loved” the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that “whoever believes” in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes” in Him is not condemned; but “he who does not believe is condemned already,” because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. John 3:16-21
God loved Bin Laden so much that He offered up His own Son for Bin Laden’s sin. But God’s love does not go as far as to wink at Bin Laden’s disbelief. Bin Laden could have believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and been saved. God NEVER took away His love–Bin Laden rejected it.
Rob Bell perpetuates the lie (it’s in the video) that unbelievers, who want to go to Heaven, like Bin Laden, actually get to Heaven, demonstrating that he (Bell) is teaching a false gospel and will be accursed if he does not repent.
Love wins when it is received.
LikeLike
Do yourself a favor Dave; go to the old testament and read the prophets. Notice how many times that God is ANGRY with Israel; how many times he pronounces damning judgment upon them…and yet, in the same prophets God says that he will restore them to the Land. That was the point of Ez 37, the “dead” would rise (this was Israel who was in captivity due to their trespasses and sins) and re-enter the promised land. In the same way, the “resurrection” of the first century was God raising even the wicked into the glorious kingdom promised to the patriarchs. For their sake, Israel would all be raised (spiritually) because God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable.
Since Israel was “a kingdom of priests unto God” their resurrection meant “life from the dead” for the entire world.
Yes, Bin Laden is in heaven…and he sees the wickedness of his evil deeds. Standing in the presence of the true holy god of all creation (rather than the moon god, Allah), his spirit is burning with holy judgment. This is what has been taught by universalists up until the last century – and is being taught again. Bin Laden is conscious and is realizing the error of his ways. This will (because it is God’s will) result in him asking forgiveness…and “God is faithful and JUST to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
You limit God’s power in this life…and you claim it’s non-existent in the next. I say that the bible teaches that our God is an all-powerful god who is able to accomplish all that he has determined. He does whatsoever he pleases. And it pleases him to save all. His son died for all; why would the Father turn anyone away?
LikeLike
WOW! I cannot believe that you actually believe that Osama Bin Laden is in Heaven.
Alrighty then, I think we’re done here–no sense in us debating the issue any longer.
LikeLike
really? We are done here. YOu said that before and then attacked an old post with ad hominem attacks.
What is sadly missing in this debate (not on this site alone but all that I participate in) is some sense of logic. American Christians will witness to their mother on her death bed; and when she passes, we’ll take any sign as proof that she actually “believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.” I’ve seen it so many times. Death Bed conversions for those we love. My AofG brother did so with our niece, who had never attended church in her life, but at her funeral, he said that he was sure she was in heaven…I did it with my father-in-law back when I believed as you believe. We all do it.
And yet, when this argument comes up; we always end up talking about Hitler (or now, Bin Laden). The audacity for some schuck like me to suggest that Hitler or Bin Laden is in heaven is too much to bear. But what if minutes before the Navy Seals supposedly busted into his residence, he was watching the 700 Club on TV and gave his life to Jesus Christ…even in your theology, he’d be in heaven.
You have no more reason to believe that he is not there than I do…it is simply your emotional response to someone you perceive as not deserving grace. I’m not condemning for it, I’m pointing out our own human nature…people like him don’t deserve grace – or do they?
“He who sins in one respect of the law, sins against the whole law…” IOW, a liar is as abominable as a murderer…an idolator…a non-circumcised gentile. The Law condemns us all; but we continue to judge others by the Law, while giving ourselves a break…cutting ourselves some slack…all because we “prayed the prayer,” or “got baptized.” We “walked the aisle.” We’ve believed.
But then we have 30,000 denominations telling us what it is we are supposed to believe for salvation…and the list gets longer by the day. It used to be the resurrection of Jesus – now it’s the endless torment of hell.
You’re probably right. We are done here. It is sad that there is no grace left in the church of Jesus Christ. There is no love: cf. Westboro Baptist Church. WBC is simply living out the “truth” that the rest of you claim to believe in. God hates. That’s the message of today’s fundamentalist. God not only hated Esau, he hates everyone…except those of us who believe the way that you do. You’re the standard. Everyone else is a heretic – like Rob Bell…and me…
blessings. I pray that God will reveal to you REAL compassion…but not in the way that most of us had it revealed to us…it’s too painful. But sometimes that’s the only way us stubborn ones figure things out.
ttfn
LikeLike
Now, Ed, that is a very interesting picture…. Osama Bin Laden watching the 700 club!
Ok, the answer is very simple. If Osama Bin Laden at any moment in his life placed his trust in Jesus Christ to save him, yes, he is in heaven. There are two obvious examples of Christians about that. One is the Apostle Paul, who under Divine inspiration wrote that he was the worst of sinners, so that the depth of God’s grace could be revealed. And secondly, the criminal, crucified next to Christ.
Hebrews 9:27: It is appointed for men once to die and then the judgement. The judgement is based upon whether your name is written in the book of life. John 3:18 show that he who believes in the Name of the Son of God is not condemned, but he who does not believe in the Name of the Son of God is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the Son of God.
See, that is the key. Did a person believe on the Name of the Son of God? To believe means to trust. It means to trust that Jesus came to earth, died on a cross for your sins, and then rose from the dead.
So, Ed, you have a choice, you can trust in Christ and what He did for you on the cross or you can trust in yourself or your own understanding. But it’s all about Jesus. And He is the only Way. No one comes to the Father, but through Jesus. If that’s not true. Jesus was a liar, and God says very clearly in His Word, that He can not be mocked.
LikeLike
My blog.
I’m done debating you.
If I choose to post comments, such as the Franklin Graham video denouncing Rob Bell, it is my prerogative.
If you want to respond, be my guest, but ‘our’ debate is over, not because I dislike you, but I’ve said everything I have to say and don’t see the need for redundancy.
LikeLike
Well, wow. Way to make some sins seem bigger than others….wait a minute. That isn’t Biblical. So, the examples that people use are usually pretty laughable…Hitler, Laden, Stalin. I am sorry, but in G-d’s eyes, according to G-d, their sins are no better or worse than your sins. Or my sins. Just saying. Btw, have you read Love Wins yet? Just curious. I get where you are coming from. But, you ending a conversation with someone because they don’t agree with you seems odd to me. Why converse with those that see eye to eye with you only? Boring. And not very Yeshua-like. 🙂 I mean, I get it if you were getting frustrated and didn’t want to say something you’d regret. But, if you truly believe that there is only one clear cut way to Heaven and anyone else believing anything else will go to Hell….Well, not continuing a discussion about it, a non hostile discussion to boot, with someone you feel may be going down the wrong path….that makes me sad. Truly sad. But I may be misunderstanding you. If so, I am truly sorry. I don’t say any of this to offend you. I only say this out of curiosity and concern. Good day to you. G-d bless.
LikeLike
Good points Arielle,
JESUS said, “you have heard it said, you shall not commit adultery; but I say to you that if you even lust after another man’s wife, you’ve already committed adultery.”
JESUS said, “you have heard it said, you shall not murder; but I say to you, if you call your brother a fool, you deserve the fire of Gehenna.”
IOW, it is clear from scripture that “if you sin on one count of the law, you have transgressed the whole law.”
Most Christians today have no clue that if we’ve ever called our brother a fool, we are as guilty as Hitler.
God is the savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY those that believe…that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself…God consigned ALL to disobedience that he may have mercy on ALL…
Yet, Jesus said, “Judge not, or you will be judged…give and it shall be given to you, pressed down, shaken together, running over shall men heap (judgment) unto your bosom.” We are told in scripture that “the same measure that you judge others will be measured back to you…”
Mankind cannot believe that God is good enough or powerful enough to have mercy on all, to save all. God is either limited by Justice or by man’s will, depending on the theological system by which you live. But the Bible states clearly that God is not only willing (it is his will that all men come to repentance), he is able (is my arm to short to save?). But love and mercy like this confuse us, for his thoughts are not like our thoughts, his ways are higher than his ways.
LikeLike
that last phrase should obviously read “his ways are higher than OUR ways.”
LikeLike
I love a good debate, but there comes a time, when each person has stated his position (several times) that the debate should end lest it become an argument.
I’m not angry with anyone, I’m just done rehashing the same thing–I say Rob Bell is a false teaching and is responsible for leading folks astray and Ed says I am wrong. Ok. The debate is over.
I love Ed and I even love Rob Bell and will pray for both. God bless you too.
LikeLike
Well actually Dave, the debate is not over. You and others here (esp. Marianne) have not answered any of my scriptures that most of us who are universalists would say are central to our understanding of the bible’s teaching. You have stated what you believe, and even thrown a few scriptures out to back it up (as Marianne has, well…one or two). I’ve answered each of the scriptures that you’ve put out as proof of your position (Franklin Graham is no more authoritative than the Pope, nor is Charles Spurgeon). You and Marianne, on the other hand, have not attempted to explain how one can continue to believe that God will torture the vast majority of humanity while claiming in the scriptures that he will have mercy on ALL, make ALL alive, save ALL, etc. You have chosen to simply ignore those scriptures and their meaning.
Now, if you are conceding that you cannot answer those scriptures, then yes, you are correct, the debate is over…but the reality is, you have lost the debate.
Have a nice day.
LikeLike
I have not ignored the scriptures you have cited, but rather maintain that your interpretation is so flawed as to be dangerous and misleading.
Your position is that my interpretation flawed. Hence, we have come to an impasse.
At this point I believe the battle is a spiritual one and therefore I have opted to pray rather then debate.
LikeLike
yes Dave, but I’ve shown you where your interpretation is flawed, at least from a universalist perspective. But your view simply ignores the scriptures that I have used to prove universalism…thus, you have not answered my claims as to what those scriptures teach.
You have maintained from the beginning of this blog post that Rob Bell is a universalist…that he is teaching falsely…and all that you and Marianne have done is throw a few scriptures at me (and others), which we have graciously explained in light of universalism. But you have not addressed those scriptures that you claim don’t teach universalism – all you’ve done is whipped out Franklin Graham’s name (in spite of his father’s comments not too long ago that this doctrine may in fact be true) and Marianne whipped out Spurgeon’s name. Frankly, I don’t care what those men teach, I care what the scripture teaches…and I believe that it teaches universalism. You have not proven otherwise…
But alas, I am used to this, that in spite of your claims that you are not going to comment any more on this, you do in fact comment on it. You claim to not want to debate it any longer, but you continue to answer new posts. But you fail to answer the scriptures contained in those posts…
Yes, I do hope that you’ll pray – but pray for the truth…that YOU will know the truth. I’ve prayed for that, and God has shown me (along with hundreds of thousands of others, and perhaps a million or more, over the ages). I ask that you pray that YOU would know the truth. And if God shows you that you are already correct in your theology, then that is fine…but at least you would have opened your mind to the Spirit’s teaching in order to find out for yourself.
As I said before, I was a Calvinist, hell-fire and brimstone believer for over 20 years, the last two as a Ruling Elder. That all changed one day when God’s spirit showed me something in the scriptures that I had never seen before. I pray the same for you.
blessings,
ed
LikeLike
Just curious… assume Bin Laden is in heaven, but chooses not to ask forgiveness… what happens now?
LikeLike
In your mind, is God that old granddaddy in the sky? Or the Jolly Elf himself?
You see, in my mind, God is Consummate Love. Think of Jesus…you know, the one who ate with tax collectors and sinners; whores and thieves; drunkards and gluttons…When they were with Jesus, they experienced a love so deep, so unearthly – it was heavenly…it was divine.
That’s God’s love…and you seriously think that anyone can stand in that love and not ask for forgiveness? And do you really think that God is so small that he is dependent on us to save us?
In your mind, God is neither loving nor powerful enough to do what he wills (“that all men be saved”). No wonder the church has no power when people like you believe what you do about God.
LikeLike
I don’t know if I could call him a universalist in the strict sense of the word. I would consider a universalist believing that everyone is saved, whether he likes it or not. I don’t think that’s what Rob Bell believes. He seems to believe that everyone who wants to be saved gets another chance after death and maybe even in hell…. I.e. if someone has enough of hell, he can get out.
His problem is right at the very beginning in his mini sermon. He talks about the Bible and all of us in this discussion lasting 1000’s of years and that he likes the discussion, because the truth is in the discussion. Thus he is putting human reasoning on the same level as God’s Word, the Bible.
Isaiah 8:20 sum this up quite well: “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.”
He starts off pretty much everything in this conversation with: “I think.” And that’s where his whole basis of belief hangs upon. He’s got to stop leaning on his own understanding.
LikeLike
You are operating under a belief that EVERYBODY wants to get to God’s heaven… This is not true, many have knowingly and purposefully perpertrated hate and spread hell on earth for their own ends– Bin Laden included– and give witness that they do not want this.
I have trouble believing if offered a choice, Bin Laden would choose to serve (as we will all be doing) ‘infidels’ or believers, and would instead choose to rule himself devoid of God entirely. This idea is directly taken from The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, and is backed by scriptures that “the first shall be last, the last first”, that the gates of the New Jerusalum will be open (gates exist to keep people in and out, but open gates do neither) in Revelation, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (the rich man still wants Lazarus to serve him even in hell!), and the sheer utter fact that some people fully embrace evil (think Hotel Rowanda, the gas chambers of Hitler, Bin Laden himself).
However, trying to make Bell appear to believe Bin Laden is in Heaven is an effective way to garner support for such arguments.
The only person i’ve heard Bell controversially say he believed in could be in Heaven was Gandhi… Who is an interesting study. Gandhi bore witness that he loved the idea of Christ and would follow him if his followers were not so abusive of him… Should he go to hell for that? Or should we?
LikeLike
Franklin Graham appeared on Bill O’Reilly and pronounces Rob Bell a false teacher. Here’s the video: http://youtu.be/gUryOzK90Ks
It would seem that Billy O would be more on Bell’s side as the debate continued.
LikeLike
Franklin Graham is a true man of God. He NEVER compromises the gospel and always sticks to the word of God on everything. Not many are as bold as he is. Praise God for Franklin and his willingness to stand for the truth instead of what others “feel” is the truth!
LikeLike
Amen. Kinda wondering why our other (legit) Christian leaders haven’t spoken out against Bell and the like–they are protectors of the flock!
LikeLike
Much better. Keep it friendly and you can stay. As for me, I’m done with the debate. Not that I don’t enjoy a good debate, but rather I’ve said all I wanted to say and only would be repeating myself.
LikeLike
Nothing gets fundies more pissed than the idea that God loves people outside their exclusive little club.
I guess if it isn’t bad news, then it ain’t the Good News!
LikeLike
I hear you Rob. Imagine going to heaven after believing that “God is Love” only to find out that God sends you to hell…why? Because YOU believed he was loving, just and merciful? What an absolutely idiotic idea.
And yet, forum after forum; blog post after blog post; the hell-fire “I’m good enough to go to heaven but you are not” crowd damns those of us who believe that NONE of us are good enough to go to heaven BUT that God “draws all men unto himself.”
What an upside down view of grace: if you believe that God gives too MUCH grace, you go to hell. yeah right!
LikeLike
No one is good enough to go to heaven. No one. Rom. 3:23.
Please, read the Scripture in Its context. When Jesus said that He would draw all men to Himself, He was talking about that He would die for all men on the cross.. It says it right there afterwards. That does not mean that all men go to heaven. That simply means that He provides salvation for all. Whether they accept it is another story.
LikeLike
Rob, I’m a fair guy, but I’m not fond of abuse, even if it is tame abuse. Please refrain from inflammatory remarks…there is no need to dance around the comments with insults. Next one gets your comments deleted.
Love you!
🙂
LikeLike
Just to add to the HISTORY: Schaff-Herzog maintain this within their section on Universalism (pg. 96):
“Under the instruction of these great teachers (Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Theodore of Mopsuestia, and Johannes Cassianus – mentioned in the earlier paragraph) many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 AD was inclined to it.
In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
So, again, as I mentioned in the earlier post, while the Pope may not have accepted it, those who were truly Orthodox (the Eastern Church) did, in fact, accept it…and was “inclined to it” as Schaff and Herzog clearly stated.
LikeLike
My views on hell are expressed best by Rob Bell. We make our own heaven or hell right on this earth. If only a few people are going to make it to heaven, than trillions of people are burning in hell right now and will continue to burn for trillions of more years. When you take the bible literal on every passage, which I do not, a person can be abused until they are 18 years old, be murdered by a mother or father at that age and because they did not accept the Lord they will burn for eternity? If you was born in India and lived in a small village and die at a young age of 19 and did not accept Christ, that person will burn for eternity because he or she belived in re-incarnation? If
you were brought up a Hindu chances are you would still be a Hindu today and not a Christian. In the literal since all these people are damned forever. Whatever you believe it takes a lot of faith because you can not prove
your point scientifically. That is why they call it faith.
I was married to a radical Christian for 25 years that put
75% of the people she new in hell. I hear radical christians state our president is going to hell and this or that person is going to hell. They are not God and do not have all the answers to the universe. No one person has
all the answers to the universe. Judge not less ye be judged.
I beleive that is my God is a God of love and compassion
and those are the types of songs I sing in concerts around my state.
LikeLike
When you say, “We make our own heaven or hell right on this earth,” what you are actually saying is that, “God got it totally wrong when He inspired men to write the Bible, but I got it right.”
Please, for your own spiritual health, reject the notion that you know more than God.
LikeLike
“Please, for your own spiritual health, reject the notion that you know more than God.”
What an arrogant, crappy statement.
LikeLike
Jesus said He was the only way. Rob Bell says Jesus is lying. Hmm? Whom shall I believe?
Frankly, it’s a no-brainer — I’m sticking with God on this one.
LikeLike
well, I can’t speak for this Rob (but I’m sure he’d agree), but those of us posting here are CHRISTIAN universalists which, if you took the time to study would find, believe that Christ DIED FOR ALL. IOW, no one comes to the Father but by Jesus…
Rob Bell is NOT a universalist (have you read the book? My kid has, and he confirmed, as did MANY OTHERS who actually read the book), so what you are doing here is “bearing false witness against your neighbor.”
What’s frustrating to me Dave is that you sit here in judgment of others, but when confronted with what you don’t know, you make some lame excuse about being busy. I think the most CHRIST-LIKE thing you could do is actually find out what you are talking about before you set yourself up as holier than the rest of us.
LikeLike
Ed, first things first, if you cannot keep it friendly, then I will delete your posts. Comments like, “If you took the time to study,” are abusive. Last warning.
Second, I heard Mr. Bell say from his own lips that he is a universalist. I even posted to video in which he said it. Having heard him say it, I am not going to buy and read his book.
Thirdly, sorry your frustrated. Nothing I can do about that one.
Shalom.
🙂
LikeLike
You’re going to delete me? As I said, if you have not read his book, you are bearing false witness.
I remember years ago, when I was a Calvinist, and I was “listening” to a song by 4Him. I THOUGHT I heard a line in the song that I thought affirmed Arminianism, and so stopped listening to the group’s music. I later mentioned it to someone, and they showed me my error. I realized what I thought I heard was not what was being said.
btw, you do not have to BUY the book. Libraries often have it to borrow for free. In the meantime, it would be best if you did not speak without knowledge of the subject matter.
LikeLike
Ed, you don’t have to read Rob Bell’s book to know what he believes. Are you saying that you never heard any of his interviews? He is very clear that he believes that all are going to heaven even as he dances around the subject.
LikeLike
Well Marianne, I am assuming that you’ve read MY comments to you above, and chose instead to bail out of the conversation. You claimed that I took everything out of context, yet you have not shown me one thing as proof of it.
Bell falls short of embracing universalism; you would know that if you read the book. Listening to his interviews is not a sufficient measure of what he believes, since he is simply answering the questions of the interviewer. Depending on how the question is framed, your answer could be different. Even you, if questions were asked a certain way may come off sounding more universalist than not…
What I find funny here is that I am openly a universalist. I freely admit it. Yet, when I tell you that Bell is NOT one (what reason would I have to lie about it), you and Dave continue to argue that I am wrong, and that you don’t need any proof of his alleged heresy except some clips from interviews.
My wife bought the book (interesting since she is not a universalist), and I perused it. I found enough objectionable to the universalist message in the first few chapters that I didn’t need to go further. My son (23-yo), who is a universalist, read the entire book, and agreed with me that Bell is not a universalist.
I could give you links of comments by dozens of people at Bell for NOT being a universalist…they all read the book and are ANGRY. They feel that his “stopping short” does more harm to the debate than good. Yet, here on this site, a bunch of folks who won’t bother reading the book, continue the false claim that Bell is a universalist. It’s false witness. Plain and simple.
LikeLike
Jesus said in his word that “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and Many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road thta leads to life and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14) Rob Bell says in his book, ” A staggering number of people have been taught that a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better. However, this belief “is misguided and toxic.”
What more do you need to see, Ed?
LikeLike
Marianne,
consider the context in which Jesus was speaking. Immediately preceding this section of scripture (in Mt 7), Jesus makes the point that you should do to others how you would have them treat you. This is the NARROW way. The Broad way was that of the Pharisees, hypocrites, blind guides (both fall into a ditch).
The reality of the scripture is that it was not meant to convey this “you better get it together buddy or you’re going to fry.” It was explaining to the masses that the Pharisees had been misleading them. That the way of “the blind” was to lead them into the ditch, rather than through the narrow gate. The way of the Pharisees was that of poison, death…self-righteousness and pride…exclusionary theological dogmas.
But the WAY to LIFE was through Jesus. And HE died for ALL. HE reconciled the WORLD to the Father. HE took away the sin of the world.
LikeLike
So…having read your blog, I took time to watch the video. I haven’t read his book yet, but found his mind kind of fascinating. I would say he is more philosopher than preacher and I think philosophy still has a place in the church. Does he push the limits? Probably. My biggest problem with his interview was that he never really answers the question, “is there a literal hell”. He always sidesteps it and focuses on the hell on earth that we experience. He refuses to land on any place of absolute. He refuses to take a rock-solid stand on any interpretation of scripture. However, I do find that in the midst of the controversy and the stretching of scripture into ambiguous form, there is this incredible truth that comes forth…Love Wins. I think what Rob Bell is really saying is found more in what he isn’t saying, which unfortunately is way open for interpretation! “My” interpretation is that God’s love is available to all, but not all people choose it. The “unsaid” interpretation (that I hear) is that Rob is shifting the focus of the judgment of God on unrepentant sinners to the responsibility of each person given free will. What I “hear” Rob saying is that we “choose” judgement (hell) if we do not choose to receive God’s love…which I would have to say I agree with. He may go farther than I’m comfortable with in his book, but that’ll have to wait for another day, another read! Sorry my two cents was so long! I have traversed past the limits of comment etiqette.
Verdict: I agree with you on some points, but disagree on others. (I think Rob Bell would like that…lol)
LikeLike
I think you’ve nailed it Rennie–that’s exactly what he is proclaiming, that (according to Bell) “God’s love is available to all, but not all people choose it.” Bell takes it one step further when he stipulates that all those who choose God get to Heaven.
That’s just not so.
Only those who accept Jesus Christ as the Way, the truth, and the life, make it Heaven. Bell plainly says in the interview that God has created a loop hole for those who believe in other (false) gods.
Now if you’re a Christian, that doesn’t fly. If a person is something else, well then that’s a different story.
God’s love IS for everyone ~and~ God’s love was made manifest in His Son, Jesus the Christ. If a person rejects Jesus, they have rejected the Father’s love.
LikeLike
I’m hesitant to post this here… but here goes…
John 3:16 reads, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” right?
Interestingly, the word for “world” (kosmos in Greek) everywhere else in the Gospel of John describes that entity that is at complete enmity with God. Typical is this prayer by Jesus just before his crucifixion: “I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world” (John 17:14-16).
Interestingly, if you use the same translation used everywhere else in the gospel of John, it changes the context significantly: “For God so loved the God-hating world that he sent his only Son … ,”. Apparently, at least according to Jesus, God really, really, really loves the world, not just those who believe, and that is the basis for universalism.
It’s a very interesting concept and it strike right at the core of what I find wrong with the Bible… it can be translated to mean whatever you want it to mean… and I think many of the greek/hebrew to english translators did just that.
I’m not saying I agree with Bell. All I am saying is I have a brain and you should really question your belief in the man translated version of the Bible you read. The KJV has numerous scriptures which appear in its version but do not only NOT appear in the greek, but do not even appear in the NIV.
Go ahead and delete my post… but it’s truth I tell you.
LikeLike
Mike, I wouldn’t delete your post! I only delete posts that are rude and/or offensive (and yours was neither). The thing is I don’t necessarily disagree with what you wrote.
However, in light of our various Bible translations, how are we to interpret John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
The Greek and the earliest transcripts agree that Jesus said He is the Only Way, the absolute truth, the eternal life, and nobody can come to the Father except through Him. That’s the critical verse in question here.
Rob Bell says that Jesus has made another way; that there is a cosmic ‘loop hole’ for non-Christ believers to sneak through. Think about it, if Bell is correct (and he is not), his false doctrine makes Jesus a liar.
Here’s the issue: Is Jesus the way or is Rob Bell the way?
LikeLike
Just as the Apostle Paul pointed out the apostate n the church, so do we need to do that today. Rob Bell is not only deceived, he is deceiving many! Of course we should pray for him and anyone else who changes the gospel or who has been deceived into believing the lie.
LikeLike
“…anyone you changes the gospel or who has been deceived into believing the lie.” That could very well be you and the way you believe, yes? I’m sure the scripture which you so firmly base your beliefs upon hasn’t been translated, and translated, and translated, over and over again, by people who are, in essence, “changing the gospel.” ?
LikeLike
Courtney, thanks for sharing. Here’s my 2 cents. God the Father sent His Son to suffer horribly and die for the sins of the world.
I suspect we both agree with that.
If what Rob Bell teaches is true, then God tortured His son needlessly. Since God said Jesus is the Only way, I tend to believe that Christ’s death was not in vain or a needless act.
Jesus is the only (as He says He is) and Rob Bell is wrong. There is no loop hole into heaven; there is no back door.
God bless and thanks for your comments.
LikeLike
Well, I thought I was done with this conversation, but since those of you who said YOU were done with it keep making “inflammatory” remarks, I felt a need to answer.
You claim that if Jesus died for all, he died needlessly? Is that what I read? I mean, the basic beliefs in universalism are that Jesus died for all, and that God’s will that all be saved would actually be accomplished.
So, if it was God’s will to save all, and Jesus died for all; why does that make his death unnecessary?
Anyone besides me see the fallacy here?
LikeLike
To quote an old baseball player, “Ya gotta believe.” (Tug McGraw)
Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
Romans 5:1, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Galatians 2:16, “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”
Galatians 3:11, “But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:24, “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”
James 2:24, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
LikeLike
Right. And what’s that got to do with burning in hell forever? It’s says that the “just shall live by faith.” It posits this against “the works of the law” which shall “justify no flesh.” So, within “that generation” the judgement upon the old covenant carcass came. Those who were apostate, or the Judaizers who had “returned to their own vomit” and who were “the falling away (apostasy)” were all killed in the siege on Jerusalem by the Romans. When the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem centuries before, Joel described that conflagration as “a fire that consumes” in his second chapter. Why should I biblically believe that the fire in Joel 2 is any different than the one described in Revelation?
Since we are quoting Romans: “God consigned ALL to disobedience that he might have mercy on ALL…” and “ALL died in Adam, ALL shall be made alive in Christ.”
Who is more powerful, Adam or Christ? Who’s work accomplished its ends? Will Christ’s mission fail? I say ‘no.’ Unless you’re a Calvinist, you must say ‘yes.’
LikeLike
Here’s what I believe regarding this topic:
a) Jesus died for everyone.
b) You must believe Jesus died for everyone.
c) If you don’t access to Heaven is denied.
d) Hell is real–hell on earth is a myth.
e) Among some other things, hell is what I have been saved from.
f) Jesus paid the penalty, I believe it, therefore, I am going to Heaven, not hell.
g) Jesus is the only way. If you believe in anything else, you’re going to hell.
h) This salvation in Christ Jesus is a free gift to everyone, but you must believe it to receive it.
i) On these points I am not going to budge.
Anything else you wanna chat about?
LikeLike
Here’s what I believe:
1. Jesus died for everyone.
2. Jesus accomplished his mission.
3. Jesus is the ONLY WAY.
4. Love wins.
LikeLike
Allow me to demonstrate what is missing in this conversation: 1 John 4:8 says that “God is Love.” With that in mind, let’s take a little look-see at what 1 Cor 13 might mean:
(GOD) is patient and kind; (GOD) does not envy or boast; (GOD) is not arrogant or rude. (GOD) does not insist on his own way; (GOD) is not irritable or resentful; (GOD) does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. (GOD) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (GOD) never fails.
LikeLike
Courtney, there is huge difference between a translation and an interpretation although they do come close at times.
The Bible wasn’t translated over and over and over again. That’s not how we got our Bibles… Yes, then you would slowly stray from what the original Documents are saying.
Greek scholars have taken many of the early manuscripts (We’re talking over 30,000 of them) and have combined them into one Greek text. Erasmus did that in the 15th century and they came up with the Textus Receptus, and Westcort and Hort did that in 19th century and we came up with the critical text. Both of these texts are very close to one another, especially when it comes to essential matters. (Differences in some of the manuscripts are things like: one might say “Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy” and the other one might say: “Paul, and Timothy and Silvanus.”
Well, for instance when the NIV was translated out of the critical text, they brought 150 different Greek scholars together from every type of belief to make sure that all they were going to do was translate and not force their own opinion on it.
I’ve translated myself and generally, if you buy a good mainstream Bible, like KJV, NIV, NASB you’ll read a solid translation. Then you get the chance to interpret it.
LikeLike
Good post, Dave. Thanks for sharing it over on my blog.
It’s been funny, that every time he says “no” to being a universalist, he always backs it up with “But it’s a valid position within the broad stream of Christian orthodoxy” (which is revisionist history, but whatever). It’s part of what so many find troubling about him; he can’t seem to give a simple yes or no answer.
Anyway, I’ve definitely been praying for him to have some clarity as well as for a great deal of humility on the part of those of us who do not agree with his teaching.
Take care!
LikeLike
Thanx Aaron, you’re right, we need to be praying for this guy ~and~ the sheep under his tutelage. BTW, I befriended you on FB.
LikeLike
you claim that universalism being accepted within the church as “revisionist history.” Schaff himself, while stating (his own opinion) that eternal “punishment” (the word, Kolasis, whose root word means “to prune”) was the “orthodox view,” admits that “Universal reconciliation” was an accepted doctrine in the early church. He goes on speaking about Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and others who embraced the doctrine.
Many bishops have, over the years, accepted this doctrine within the Eastern Orthodox tradition, not much in the West, but who exactly is the “protector of orthodoxy”? Is it the Pope? Unless you are Eastern Orthodox, you most likely claim authority for orthodoxy from the declarations of the Councils and Creeds of the Church, but then do you embrace the proclamation of the 7th Ecumenical Council? That those who do not venerate icons in fact deny the Incarnation? Is that your belief? Why not? It is ORTHODOXY…
Or do you embrace the idea that the Protestants are the protectors of orthodoxy? If so, which then is the orthodox position on baptism? Sprinkling, pouring, or dunking? In the name of Jesus; or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? For the remission of sin, or for membership in the church? Baptismal regeneration or as “an outward expression of an inward reality”?
What about the Lord’s Supper? Christ’s presence, or a memorial? Literal body and blood, spiritual presence, or no presence at all?
And what of sola scriptura? Does what the scriptures say matter any longer, or are we to simply go by what “an ordained minister” of the gospel says? And what ordination is valid? Apostolic succession? Presbyterian? Denominational?
The list goes on sir…when people speak of Orthodoxy, most are ignorant of what that actually entails. The only church history that most of us are aware of is Catholic…yet, likely you reject it – where it’s inconvenient for you. When the Catholics believe what you don’t believe, you suddenly freely leave orthodoxy; but when my departure from orthodoxy doesn’t sit well with you, suddenly I am a heretic…
I have news for you…if you are not a Roman Catholic, you are a heretic.
LikeLike
The Lord’s supper is a rememberance, just as Christ said it was to be. Ed sounds very angry because he is Catholic and believes to be otherwise is heretical. I praise God that I was delivered from Catholicism.
Where was their religion of love during the Crusades when the Catholic church was killing, torturing and beheading and burning alive people who would not convert to their religion? ( Not much different from radical Islam!) Does it matter that Pope Pious IX took the infant son off of a Jewish couple who refused to convert to Catholicism after their maid secretly baptized the infant? The weak apology for this from Pope John Paul is not enough. The list goes on and on, but sadly, Catholics refuse to see.
LikeLike
Obviously you have great difficulty reading…I am anything but Catholic. I am a heretic, a universalist, a Berean.
My point was that those of you who love to condemn a man (or woman) who is a universalist based on “orthodoxy” have a problem…if you’re not a Catholic, you’re a heretic…It was the Roman Church that told the world what “orthodoxy” consists of – and it’s all BS
There, were you able to follow my argument now?
LikeLike
Ed, why are you so angry?
LikeLike
well, first of all, I’m not angry. Second of all, what if I am?
You see, unlike the people here posting against Rob Bell, I believe that God loves all of you…You on the other hand believe that God either chooses to love only a select few, OR he is too weak to ensure that his creation spends eternity in heaven.
Now, let me ask you some questions: What part of “God is Love” don’t you understand? What part of “God, who is the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe” don’t you understand? What part of “ALL died in Adam, ALL shall be made alive in Christ” don’t you understand? What part of “God consigned ALL to disobedience that he may have mercy on ALL” don’t you understand? What part of “God, was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself” don’t you understand? And finally, what part of “love your enemies” in order to be like God is too difficult for you to understand?
I mean, if God shows his love for his enemies by torturing them for eternity, then shouldn’t we show our love for OUR enemies by torturing them in the here and now? Oh wait, that’s exactly what the Spanish Inquisition did, and Calvin did, and just about every Pope throughout history did…
You see, read your new testament and see how Jesus treats sinners. Then check out Nebuchadnezzar in the Hebrew Bible…if someone wouldn’t worship him, he threw that person into a fiery furnace…so let me ask you one more question:
The god that you worship, who throws people into a fiery furnace, does he look more like Jesus OR Nebuchadnezzar? What is YOUR image of god?
LikeLike
Hi Ed, I don’t mean to sound argumentative, I am just trying to reason with you. Since this is Dave’s blog, I will let him answer you more fully, but I do want to make a few points.
We all here believe that God loves all men. However, Jesus suffered and died for our redemption in that love so that those who believed on him would be saved. Jesus himself said that “small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to eternal life, and FEW find it”. Most people are going to go their grave fighting for their “right” to get saved their own way. It doesn’t work that way. For that, Jesus spoke of the lake of fire where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If you understood the holiness of God and understood what he did so that you and I could have eternal life in heaven with him, you would know that those who do not believe will not be with him. Nebuchadnezzar was just a man himself but forced the people to bow down to him. He was wrong to do that and he was wrong to throw them in the fire if they didn’t. He was a MAN only. He was no one’s Creator or Savior. We are not to bow down even to Angels. They are created beings just like us. Only God deserves our adoration. God created us for himself. To those who do want any part of him or want to do it their way, they will pay the consequence. Religion can’t save you nor can anything man gives you to do can save you. Jesus said that I have come that all men would have life. To those who BELIEVE, he has made them sons and co-heirs with him.
Where in the bible do you read that Jesus said all people would be saved? The sad part is that he died so that all who believed on him would have joy complete with him but most will not.
LikeLike
where in the bible do I find that Jesus (or his followers) said that all men would be saved? I just quoted a number of scriptures for you…and showed you the example of Jesus vs. Nebuchadnezzar. I’ll show you other scriptures in a moment but would like to address the Nebuchadnezzar issue. You say he was just a man, and he was wrong…yet, you are saying that it is all right for God to throw people in a fiery furnace for not bowing down to him? Wow. So, are we, or are we not supposed to be “conformed to the image of” Jesus?
Now, for the scriptures:
Gen 12:3 “ALL the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Gen 26:3-4 “He makes an oath to bless ALL nations.
2Sam 14:14 “God does not take away life; instead, He devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him.”
Job 5:17-18 “Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty; for he bruises, but he binds up; he wounds, but his hands make whole.”
Job 23:13 “Whatever His soul desires, that he does.”
Job 42:2 “You (God) can do ALL things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.”
Ps 2:8 “He (Jesus) receives the nations for an inheritance.”
Ps 22:27 “ALL the ends of the world shall…turn to the Lord. And ALL the families of the nations shall worship before You.”
Ps 22:29 “ALL those who down to the dust shall bow before him…who cannot keep himself alive.”
Ps 30:5 “His anger is but for a moment, his favor is for life; weeping may endure for a night but joy comes in the morning.”
Ps 65:2-3 “To you ALL flesh will come…you will provide atonement.”
Ps 66:3-4 “Through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship you and sing praises to you.”
Ps 66:11-12 “You laid affliction on our backs…WE WENT THROUGH THE FIRE…but you brought us out to rich fulfillment.”
Ps 72:11 “ALL kings shall fall down before him; ALL nations shall serve him.”
Ps 72:17 “ALL nations shall call him blessed.”
Ps 86:9 “ALL nations shall come, worship and glorify him.”
Ps 89:30-34 “If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules, if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments, then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes, but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.”
Ps 90:3 “You return man to dust and say, ‘Return, O children of man!'”
Ps 103:8-9 “The LORD is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy. He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.”
Ps 135:6 “Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.”
Ps 138:4 “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD, When they hear the words of Your mouth.”
Is 2:2 “In the last days his house shall be established and ALL nations shall flow into it.”
Is 14:24, 27 “The Lord…has sworn, saying surely as I have thought so it shall come to pass, and as I have purposed, so it shall stand…the Lord of hosts has purposed and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?”
Is 45:21b-25 “And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, ‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. In the LORD all the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.’”
Is 50:2 “Is my hadn shortened at all that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver?”
There’s dozens more that I don’t have time to post…but I will post those from the NT one more time…
Read Rom 5:17-18.
John 3:17 says, “God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him would be saved.”
Rom 11:26 “ALL Israel will be saved…he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”
Rom 11:32 “God has consigned ALL to disobedience that He might have mercy on ALL.”
2 Cor 5:19 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
2 Tim 1 tells us that Jesus “abolished death”
1 Cor 15 tells us that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
1 Tim 2 tells us that it is God’s will that ALL men be saved.
and 1 Tim 4:10 tells us that “God, who is the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe” (not exclusive of those that believe, but in addition to all that believe).
The judgments spoken of in scripture were to warn the first century Jews of the coming destruction in AD70 with the Roman siege on Jerusalem, and destruction of the Temple. In spite of many dead bodies being thrown in “Gehenna” (the garbage dump outside Jerusalem) where they burned, the scripture assures us that there was only ONE Foundation laid (the stumbling stone, the chief cornerstone in Zion), and that ALL men built on that. Some with works of faith (gold, silver and precious stone), while some built with “dead works” (wood, hay and straw). When the fire of judgment came in AD70, those who were “of the flesh” doing “dead works” had their works “burned up, yet their souls were saved…as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15).
Oh btw, the “broad road that leads to destruction” (if one takes the time to search the scriptures for what brings destruction) are the works of the flesh…the self-righteousness of the pharisees and those that followed them. On the other hand, the narrow road, chosen by few in Israel, was the way of LOVE, of LIFE. This was the commandment that summed up ALL other commandments; and NONE practiced in the times of Jesus. Paul, James and John all agree that men of faith would practice “good works,” i.e., works of LOVE. “Love one another…” “Love your neighbor as yourself…” “Love your enemies…” For God is Love…
Love wins.
LikeLike
Ed, you definitely took Scripture verses out of context!
I will say no more. I believe Charles Spurgeon says it best:
http://erictyoung.com/2011/03/29/gods-terrifying-presence-apart-from-christ-%e2%80%94-charles-spurgeon/
LikeLike
well of course you’ll say no more…you can’t even show me where I took one single scripture out of context…
You see, I used to believe just like you. I was always under guilt and condemnation, just as you are. I mean, after all, how can you ever trust a god who would do THAT to people who’d never heard his name?
You see, Adam and Eve were “naked” (i.e., human) but they were not ashamed. But when they ate from the tree of knowledge (i.e., religion) their eyes were opened and they experienced shame and guilt. Jesus came to deliver us from that shame and guilt…not to save us from “hell-fire.”
I pray that someday you’ll stop listening to Charles Spurgeon and start reading your bible…in context…then you’ll see the god who was epitomized in Jesus (not in Nebuchadnezzar). Jesus LOVED sinners; he told them “then neither do I condemn you…” when the religious could not, in good conscience, stone her. Jesus told people that their “sins are forgiven,” because “he is faithful and just to forgive our sins…”
God’s justice is forgiveness. His way is LOVE. The ways of the Serpent (religious lies) steal, kill and destroy us as humans…it makes us feel like we are unloved by God. It shames us, so we hide in our religious works (our fig leaves). But the author of Hebrews tells us that we should “repent of dead works (i.e., the works of the law, the works of the flesh…)” The Law was “the ministration of death,” iow, it brought death. Doctrines that do not affirm LIFE and LOVE (like hell-fire) are part of that shaming process. Part of THAT tree.
But Jesus is a Tree of LIFE. He is the Way of LOVE. ALL the families of the earth are blessed through “The Seed.”
LikeLike
Ed, if I could give a thousand thumbs up for this post, I would. I’m glad there is someone else on here that can look at the bible objectively in their interpretation and who has actually studied the history behind the separate books of the bible instead of just blindly interpreting. I admire Rob Bell for these same qualities.
LikeLike
I’ve been away on a mission trip Ed and am just catching this conversation now. Can you summarize in a paragraph
or two your position for me?
LikeLike
well, I posted a response here yesterday…is there some kind of Moderating being done now? I am posting this as a test to see if it posts immediately, or if there’s something afoot. If it posts immediately, I’ll assume that WordPress has failed to upload my earlier message, and so I’ll do it again. If this doesn’t post immediately, oh well…
LikeLike
Okay, I’ll try again. But no, I cannot keep it to one or two paragraphs any more than anyone else could…
First, Jesus spoke of “this generation” iow, those he was speaking to, seeing the tribulation. Time statements throughout the NT tell us that something significant would happen prophetically within the lifetime of Jesus’ hearers. His followers also spoke of things that were “about to” (mello) happen – the resurrection of the dead, the judgment of the living (believers in Christ) and the dead (Israel after the flesh). ALL things were about to be fulfilled, including the salvation of ALL Israel.
Second, Israel after the flesh was “dead in her trespasses and sins” due to non-adherence to the Law, which empowered sin, the sting of death. Those who believed in the Lord Jesus were “raised to newness of life,” but “the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years (the time from Solomon to Jesus) was over. Solomon was the Beast, whose number six hundred sixty-six corresponded to the number of talents of gold that he received in tribute. Israel after the flesh still believed that Solomon was the True Heir of all things, but those who believed in Jesus, Israel after the Spirit, believed that Jesus was David’s rightful heir.
At the end of the millennium (70CE), Jesus sent the Roman armies (the Eagle/Vulture) to destroy the “carcass” of the old covenant – the “dry bones” of Ez 37. For the sake of the Patriarchs, Israel after the flesh was still beloved, even though they were enemies (satans) of the Cross – because God’s gifts and callings are irrevocable. Therefore, in 70CE, ALL Israel was raised – those who believed from LIFE, those who did not believe from condemnation. This reconciliation of ALL Israel meant “LIFE for the world.”
This was Jesus mission. To seek and save “that which was lost” (i.e., the House of Israel). To destroy the works of the Evil One (the dead works of the old covenant). And to reconcile the world to the Father.
He accomplished his mission.
LikeLike
WordPress deleted your 1st response because of your word choices.
I’m unable to reply to your 2nd response because I haven’t a clue contextually what your talkin about.
LikeLike
You “haven’t a clue contextually what your (sic) talking about”? I think it’s pretty straight-forward. I mean, Marianne claimed that I take scripture out of context. I quote numerous scriptures throughout my post (do I need to give you the references?), and you are unable to respond to any of them; show me where I’m wrong?
Seriously though, I don’t expect much from people who don’t study the scriptures. Most people, as I was at one time, simply listen to the tapes of their favorite “bible teachers” (if they do that much) and assume that they are getting the entirety of the message. Sadly, most times they are not.
This is not to say that I don’t get something from listening to, or reading a paper by, a bible teacher that I don’t agree with. I most certainly do. I currently sit under a CRC pastor who does a great job of showing us from the scriptures how we should live…I don’t agree entirely with him, but we are brothers.
You asked me what I believe. I told you. If you’d like me to expand on it, I can…but I seriously doubt you want me to fill up your blog more than it is. In fact, I’m seriously concerned that you might delete me entirely, even though you deny that you do that kind of thing. After all, I’ve noticed from the comments here that you don’t get many people who are well studied…
I’ve been a Christian for 30 years, but was raised in a nominal Christian home for 22 years before that. I’ve been around the block, serving as an elder and a deacon in a variety of settings. In all of it, God’s mercy allowed me to always find good in others…which led to me eventually finding good in myself – and in God. God is good. He will not fail in his mission; in fact, he has already succeeded.
LikeLike
I didn’t say you were wrong, what I said is I’m not following you contextually; i.e., how it pertains to my assertion that Rob Bell is a false teacher.
The fact is your responses are longer than the original blog — my A. D. D. brain has difficulty keeping up with you.
LikeLike
David, you asked me what I believed. I told you. Contextually, it is asserting how it has come about that God has indeed reconciled ALL to Himself.
Rob Bell is certainly not a false teacher any more than Billy Graham is. Bell is also NOT a universalist, as many of my friends who have read his book (unlike most people who comment about it) can attest. At the current time, Bell is at best an annihilationist -which is a good first step, I too first embraced annihilationism as a response to the horrid doctrine of eternal torture; but later saw in scripture how “death is the last enemy to be defeated” so how indeed could spiritual death continue for eternity…that would make God a loser, and He IS NOT.
LikeLike
Ok, that was easy. Simply put, I don’t agree with you. With all due respect, I’m going to bow out of the debate as I have already said my fair share.
LikeLike
“In regards to the question, ‘Are you a universalist?’, I would say first and foremost ‘no’.” – Rob Bell
He said it himself.
From this interview regarding the book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg-qgmJ7nzA
LikeLike
Yup, I heard him deny it on MSNBC interview the next day, but on the live interview that I got my information from, he admits it. I provided a link to the that interview if you’d like to view it.
In addition to being a Universalist, Rob Bell is apparently also a liar.
Let’s love on him and lift him up in prayer!
LikeLike
How many of us who disagree with Bell on this issue, and are saddened by his misguiding his and others’ flocks are actually praying for him?
Only God opens the eyes of the blind and deceived. Enough with the critical reviews and blog posts. Let’s pray for Bell and those being influenced by him.
LikeLike
I’ve been JT — the man desperately needs our prayers. And you are correct, we also need to pray for the flock he is leading astray.
Thanx for the good word on that.
LikeLike
Wow, thanks for sharing this. I hadn’t known much about Rob Bell other than heard of him through the “hype”…I was thinking about reading one of his books, but I surely will not support his false teaching with my money.
LikeLike
Rebecca, this is gonna sound a little corny, but what you said made this blog worth the writing. I am very grateful that you will not be buying his book.
Having said that, let’s remember we need to pray for this guy–Jesus loves him (and so should we) and He does not want him to perish.
LikeLike
yeah Rebecca, even though you “hadn’t known much about Rob Bell” you are going to let one comment (an inaccurate one at that) convince you that his teaching is “false”?
That’s the kind of thinking by the religious folks that put our Lord on the cross.
LikeLike
Amen! broad is the way that leads to destruction and Rob Bell is leading them right there- how sad
LikeLike