The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16
Two Applications
The first application is a literal — we are responsible for the messes we make and we cannot position our sinful burdens on our relatives. Nor can we take the sinful load off someone else’s shoulders. Individuals are, and always will be accountable for their own transgressions. I suspect that most would agree with that view. But I submit to you that there is a spiritual truth being established [here] that is far greater than the obvious literalism and that bursts with significance eternal—the verse destroys false doctrines regarding our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
What the Naysayers Say
The naysayers believe they are on to something when they read Deuteronomy 24:16.
“Isn’t it true that God the ‘Father’ sent His ‘Son’ to die for our sins?” they announce, believing they have stumbled upon a biblical contradiction, “God broke His own rules!”
They stumbled all right — directly into the Divine veracity of our Lord. God has not violated His own mandate, for to do so would make Him a liar. What the naysayer has stumbled onto is the dual reality of the passage.
…In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began… Titus 1:2
Reality Check
The twofold reality is that Jesus died for our sins ~and~ He is not a created being; therefore there is no violation of the Father’s directive. The Deuteronomy 24:16 mandate applies to created beings. Simultaneously, it points to what Jesus would ultimately do on the cross, completely demonstrating that in light of God’s decree, no created being could ever have accomplished the feat. Our Savior was not fashioned (as angels are) and, although He was born of a woman, He remains the only man without a birthday, for Jesus always was.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 2, 14
The truth of the matter is that when the Father sent His Son to die for our sin, He actually sent Himself. I know for some the notion of Jesus and God being one-and-the-same is difficult to grasp, but the truth of His Word cannot be denied. If John’s Gospel and description of Jesus’ deity is too abstract, then consider the words of the Prophet Isaiah who clearly declares Christ’s Oneness with the Father.
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
To deny scripture; to proclaim it erroneous; to maintain that Jesus is not God and that He was created, is to call God a liar. To randomly edit or revise His Word is for all intents and purposes to proclaim deity unto your self. Don’t do that. Take God at His word—He loves you and He cannot lie.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
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He Dwells -- The B'log in My Eye 
Hey Jimbo, I am appreciating this dialogue! God bless you bro.
Amalekites are the descendants Amalek (and Esau) and inherited Esau’s hostility towards his brother Jacob. The Amalekites mission, for lack of a better word, was and is the destruction of Israel and extermination of the Jews. This isn’t just some family-feud we’re talking about, this is hatred similar to that of Hitler (towards the Jews) and his followers, but on the grandest scale.
Two things that I have said and are worthy of repeating: God knows the beginning from the end, thus He knows that Amalekitish baby of today (then) is going to inherit the same hatred towards Israel, fail to repent, and likely lead others down the same hellish pathway. In this regard, the Amalekites have come to be an illustration of sin in God’s word the Bible. The other thing is that the Book of Revelation speaks of the time when we get to Heaven. At this time, you and I, and everyone else, we’ll have our eyes opened to the point that no one will be able to say what God has done was unrighteous.
“After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” Revelation 19:1-2
It’s not that I disagree with you–this was HARSH, but I believe with all my heart that when I see the bigger picture, the prophecy of Revelation 19 will come true for me, for I will most certainly declare of the Lord, “true and righteous are His judgments!” And so will everybody else.
God said it and I believe it!
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Thanks for your replies and for sharing your faith. I personally cannot reconcile the contradiction, but I respect your viewpoint.
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Thank you bro! I certainly understand the quandary and state of perplexity, because I was once there myself. But the further I delved into my faith, or more accurately, the more I utilized the wee faith I had been given, the more I understood how God’s perfect righteousness dismantles that seemingly contradictive attribute of Himself.
I enjoyed the dialogue–please stop by again.
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The website you copied from is dishonest. While there are elements of truth in it, it hardly qualifies as an accurate portrayal of Mormon concepts. While I don’t have time to go through all the parts you cited, I would like to demonstrate just how dishonest the portrayal is.
The author of that article claimed:
Many of my Mormon friends, however, believe that most of the atonement took place when Jesus sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane for our sins, and that when he finally reached the cross he didn’t have much blood left to shed (Romney, Oct. conference 1953, p. 35).
I surmise that he offered that citation because he didn’t expect anyone to have access to it to demonstrate how false his statement was. While Mormons believe that the suffering of Christ occurred both on the cross and in the Garden of Gethsemane, the author’s claim regarding that “he didn’t have much blood left to shed” is insultingly false. Here is Marion G. Romney’s statement that your source claims to be citing:
Jesus then went into the Garden of Gethsemane. There he suffered most. He suffered greatly on the cross, of course, but other men had died by crucifixion; in fact, a man hung on either side of him as he died on the cross. But no man, nor set of men, nor all men put together, ever suffered what the Redeemer suffered in the garden. He went there to pray and suffer. One of the New Testament writers says that it ” . . . was as it were drops of blood falling down to the ground.” (Luke 22:44.)
In this dispensation the Lord, calling the upon the people to repent, tells them that unless they repent they must suffer even as he suffered. He describes suffering in these words:
“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.” (D. & C. 19:18-19.)
Now, my brethren and sisters, I cannot here discuss with you in detail what the atonement of the Savior means to us. But without it, no man or woman would ever be resurrected. From Adam’s time to the time of Jesus, men died—millions of them. The hills and vales were full of their remains. But not a single one of them ever came out of the grave as a resurrected person until that glorious morning when Jesus was resurrected. Without his victory over death, they never would have come out of their graves, worlds without end. It took the atonement of Jesus Christ to reunite the bodies and spirits of men in the resurrection. And so all the world, believers and non- believers, are indebted to the Redeemer for their certain resurrection, because the resurrection will be as wide as was the fall, which brought death to every man.
That is everything he said in that discourse regarding the blood of Jesus Christ. It’s entirely consistent with the New Testament and also entirely absent any mention of Jesus “not having much blood left.”
Note also in the scripture cited by Romney that Christ refers to Himself as God.
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Like I said, I can’t attest to valildity of what the entire website had to say, but rather pulled it up (and posted it) so you could refute those things you didn’t agree with and substantiate those thing you do agree with.
Having said that, what are the ‘elements of truth’ that you saw in it, so we can know where each other is coming from, spritually speaking?
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Compare:
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16
and…
Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”
1 Samuel 15:1-3
Those women and babies must have done some terrible stuff to the Israelites to deserve to die like that. Who knows what sins the camels and donkeys must have committed.
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These people that the Lord tells Israel to utterly destroy in the OT were given 400 years (by God) to repent. Not only did they refuse, they got worse. God, knowing the beginning from the end, merely sought to put them out of their collective misery, like one might destroy a rabid dog.
I understand how folks can look at a passage like this and deem our Loving Father in Heaven as ‘not-so-loving’, but the truth be told, when we all get to Heaven the Bible says that everyone will declare God’s ways were righteous and true.
And so we’re clear, everyone gets to go to Heaven, but not everyone gets to stay there. The unbelievers will go before Jesus Christ and be judged. They have sealed their own fate in that regard (God does not send people to hell, people send themselves).
I hope my friend that makes a little sense to you, I know it’s hard to grasp all in one sitting. Thanx for stopping by.
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Thanks for the reply. The problem with your explanation is that the scripture clearly says, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt,” something done by their forefathers hundreds of years earlier.
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The explanation is accurate, what we’re really talking about is how it pertains to the punishment, ie, the harshness and severity of it. God has before Him (as He makes His judgment) their entire history and because of a) their 400 years of failure to repent, b) their increased depravity, c) and God being able to see the beginning from the end, He calls for their total destruction.
Like I alluded to earlier, to most people this seems over-the-top harshness on God’s part, but the book of Revelation tells us when we get to heaven, not one person is going to look at these events and declare God was unrighteous.
In other words, when we see the whole picture, we’re all going to nod in agreement, “God was absolutely correct in everything He did.”
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No reply link on your comment below, so I’ll have to reply to my own comment.
Your explanation is based on non-Biblical speculation and does not address the issue raised. The real issue is that the Amalekites of Saul’s day were killed as punishment for sins committed by their forefathers, as the scripture explicitly states.
It does not mention their 400 years of failure to repent, which smacks of some sort of collective guilt as opposed to individual accountability. And how exactly does an infant repent?
It does not mention their increased depravity. Rather it cites past depravity of their ancestors.
It does not cite some future sins which God sees. Incidentally, if God punishes for sins not yet committed, why didn’t he kill Hitler and Stalin as infants?
A specific reason for the slaughter is given–the fact that their forefathers attacked the Israelites during the exodus. That stands in direct contradiction to Deut. 24:16.
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I see. That’s a popular misconception. I’m not sure how JW’s would respond to that, but as a Mormon, Jesus certainly is God and is proclaimed as such throughout LDS scripture.
As far as Him being a “created” being, that concept is foreign to Mormonism. We don’t consider beings as having been “created;” that’s a concept that’s been superimposed upon us by our critics.
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Fair enough.
I copied the following information from this website: http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/denyjesus.html.
I am no Mormon scholar, and honestly, I have heard many of these things but I cannot attest to their veracity. Could you go through them and tell me what is accurate and what is a lie? Here’s the stuff I found…
“The True Jesus Has Always Been God
The Bible says that Jesus has always been God (John 1:1-14), and there is only one God in existence (Is. 44:6). However, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father is a resurrected human man who is a married being who has “spirit children” in Heaven. Mormonism teaches that every human being born on this earth was first born in Heaven to God and one of his wives. Accordingly, Jesus was also born in the pre-existence to God the Father and one of his wives in heaven, just like all other human and demonic beings.
The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus is the first baby born to God in heaven. They also teach that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in Heaven (Gospel Through the Ages – 1946 Priesthood Manual by Milton R. Hunter, p. 15). The Bible says that Jesus created everything that was created and made (John 1:3, Col. 1:16). This includes the Devil since only God was in existence in the beginning. By saying that Jesus only came into being when he was born in the pre-existence and had to work out his way to becoming a God, Mormonism denies Jesus’ Godhood from all eternity.
The Trinity or Polytheism?
The God of the Bible says that there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:8). He knows of no other God in existence. Before Him there were no Gods formed, neither will there be any Gods formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10). Although from our vantage point, we see three separate personages (Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost), these three separate personages are somehow the one eternal God. No one seems to be able to explain just exactly and precisely how this happens, but since the Bible says it, true Bible believers believe it. Sometimes it is explained like this: “There exists only one eternal God who manifests himself in three distinct personages, … Father, Son and Holy Ghost.”
Mormons, however, consider God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost to be three separate gods who are one only in purpose. They also believe that god their father has a god who was his father, who has a god the father to him, and so on into eternity past. The Mormon temple ceremony teaches that men can become gods themselves, who can become gods to their sons, who can become gods to their sons, and so on into the unending future (What’s Going On In There by Chuck Sackett).
Mormonism also teaches that Jesus Christ, the devil, and the Holy Ghost are brothers born to God the Father and one of his wives in Heaven during the pre-world existence. Mormonism believes in the existence of an infinite number of gods. Because they believe that more than one god exists, it is obvious that Mormonism is polytheistic (Webster’s Dictionary) and therefore truly denies the biblical meaning of the trinity.
The Highest “Gospel” Goal
The highest goal of every faithful male Latter-day Saint (Mormon) is to strive to become a God like his Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father’s spirit children must come to earth and live a mortal life, then die, be resurrected, and work their way up to the Celestial Kingdom in order to become Gods or Goddesses themselves (Gospel Principles, Chapter 47; Mormon Doctrine, p. 238). Thus Mormonism belittles Jesus’ Godhood by making it attainable to sinful man.
His Birth Place
The Book of Mormon, prophesies that Jesus would be born “at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers” (Alma 7:10). This is a false prophesy because Jerusalem has always been a city, it has never been a land. Also it is very clear in the Bible, that Jesus’ birth happened in “Bethlehem of Judea.” (Matt. 2:1) It is interesting that most Mormons do not believe that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. Those who agree with the Book of Mormon obviously reject his Biblical birthplace.
The Virgin Birth
The Bible and the Book of Mormon agree that Jesus was born of a virgin. This sign was given in the Old Testament. “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14). The Bible says, “She was found to be with child through the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 1:18-28).
The Book of Mormon agrees, “…she being a virgin … who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost…” (Alma 7:10) However, Brigham Young denied this Biblical truth: “Now remember from this time forth and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost” (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, p. 51).
The meaning of “virgin” is that Mary had never had sex with anyone. Mormon prophets and apostles have continually taught that God the Father came down to earth with his glorified physical body, parts, and passions and had sex with the “virgin” Mary to form the body of Jesus Christ. Mormon Apostle James Talmage calls this act “celestial sireship” (Jesus the Christ, p. 81).
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie says that it happened in the “same way that mortal sons are born to mortal fathers”. He also said that it happened in the “normal and natural” way (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742).
Ezra Taft Benson (former prophet of the Mormon Church who died in 1994), not only stated that Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost, but also that Jesus was literally “sired” by God the Father (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7). He then goes on to say that Mary was “called a virgin both before and after she gave birth.” By this statement, the Mormon prophet is saying that although Jesus was “sired [sexual relations] by that same being we worship as God our Eternal Father”, we will still “call” his mother a “virgin.”
This definition obviously disagrees with Webster’s Dictionary and our common usage of the term “virgin.” (additional references: 1972 Family Home Evening pp. 125-6, The Seer pp. 158-9, Defense of the Faith of the Saints–B.H. Roberts, Vol. 2, p. 268) It should be obvious now that the Mormon Church denies the biblical meaning of the “virgin birth.”
Jesus’ Blood Sacrifice for Sins
The Bible reports his baptism by John in the Jordan River as the first event in Jesus’ public ministry. Jesus chose twelve apostles and commenced his ministry of proclaiming the kingdom of God. He never hurt anyone but helped those who were in need. The lame walked, the sick were healed, and the blind could see. He did not shed blood in the garden but his sweat was “as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground” in the garden (Luke 22:44).
He was then illegally arrested, beaten, and tortured to death on a cross. He was buried in a tomb, he rose from the dead on the third day (1 Cor. 15:4), and ascended into Heaven (Acts 1:1-11). He now sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. His perfect sinless life qualified him alone as a sin sacrifice, which was his purpose in life and death. (Acts 2:33, 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15)
Many of my Mormon friends, however, believe that most of the atonement took place when Jesus sweated blood in the Garden of Gethsemane for our sins (The Promised Messiah, pp. 337-8), and that when he finally reached the cross he didn’t have much blood left to shed (Romney, Oct. conference 1953, p. 35).
Because of this teaching that Jesus shed his blood in the garden to atone for our sins, many Mormons believe that Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross for our sins. Most of the Mormons who have seen the cross that I wear, think that it is foolish to wear something that emphasizes Christ’s death. They don’t realize that it was on the cross that Jesus willingly paid the penalty for our sins.
Today, Mormons mock the cross of Christ and refuse to display one at any of their buildings. However, the Bible says that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but it is the power of God to those who are being saved (I Corinthians 1:18). Thus, Mormonism denies the blood of Jesus shed on the cross for our sins.
After His Ascension into Heaven
The Book of Mormon reports that Jesus caused many cities in America to be destroyed with all their inhabitants. He then descended out of the clouds and appeared to the people living on the American continent. Accordingly, he also established his church in America (Mormon 3:19) where he picked out twelve more apostles (twelve in Israel and twelve in America for a new total of 24).
According to Mormonism, both of Christ’s churches ended in utter failure (total apostasy). Jesus was not able to keep his church going and this is why Joseph Smith was called to restore the true church again upon this earth (Pearl of Great Price – Joseph Smith History 1:19). This is also why Joseph boasted that he did a greater work than even Jesus did (History of the Church Vol. 6, pp. 408-409). By these teachings, the Mormon Church denies Jesus’ biblical role as healer / redeemer and makes him into a killer / destroyer / liar.
Melchizedek, Aaronic and Jesus’ Priesthoods
Melchizedek – is the first priesthood mentioned in the Bible. Melchizedek met Abraham returning from battle and blessed him (Genesis 14:18-24). Genesis does not record any other incident in Melchizedek’s life. It does not record his ancestry, how he became a priest or his death. The Bible does not record the transfer of his priesthood to anyone else (Heb. 7:3).
Aaronic – This priesthood was introduced by God to Aaron through Moses. Because physical death prevented Aaronic priests from continuing in office, their priesthood had to be transferred to their descendants (Heb. 7:23). All Aaronic (or Levitical) priests were required to be a direct descendent of Aaron (Heb. 7:5, 14). The law required a blood sacrifice of bulls and goats as a consequence of sin. However, the shedding of the blood of animals, could not impart eternal life to imperfect people through the law (Heb. 7:11, 8:7,&13; Gal. 3:21-22). The Aaronic priesthood ended with John (Luke 16:16, Matt 27:51). It is clear that Jesus was not from the tribe of Aaron and doesn’t qualify for the Aaronic Priesthood (Heb. 7:11-15).
Jesus’ Priesthood –
Because man could not keep the law perfectly, there was a need for a new priesthood to come, not based on death, but on an indestructible life (Heb. 7:16). Jesus put into effect a new and perfect priesthood (Heb. 7:18). Jesus’ priesthood is held by him alone, because he is the only one who could offer himself as a sinless sacrifice (Heb. 7:15-16). He alone qualifies for this new priesthood in the order (pattern or arrangement) of Melchizedek. Like Melchizedek, Jesus’ priesthood is not traceable according to ancestry (Heb 7:3). Jesus’ priesthood is unchangeable, meaning non-transferable (Heb. 7:24). Thus, Jesus is the only one who has it and it cannot be given or transferred to anyone else.
Mormon Priests –
The Priesthoods of Mormonism do not look at all like the Biblical originals. Today, the Mormon Church gives their twelve-year-old boys a priesthood that they call the “Aaronic Priesthood”.
19-year-old boys can qualify for the Mormon “Melchizedek Priesthood”. These Priesthoods are not the restoration of the originals for they are both transferable and neither are given by lineage. According to Mormonism, their Jesus qualified for and held both of these Priesthoods. The Mormon Church totally re-defines God’s Holy Priesthoods and thus denies Jesus’ non-transferable priesthood.
Who Then Can Be Saved?
The Bible says that God’s salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works (John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-10). The Book of Mormon says that a person must do all the works that they can, in order to qualify to receive grace (II Nephi 25:23, Moroni 10:32).
The Mormon Church teaches that Jesus’ atonement enables every person who has ever lived to be resurrected, but that salvation is conditional upon their own works (Mormon Doctrine pp. 24 & 669, Articles of Faith pp. 89-90, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-134). However, the Bible is clear that there is no other way to be saved except through accepting the work done on the cross by the true Jesus Christ (John 14:6, Romans 10:13-17, Acts 4:12). Mormonism rejects God’s gift of salvation by grace bought by the death of Jesus on the cross.
Is Joseph the Judge?
In an 1859 sermon, Brigham Young said, “…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are-I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation-the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being, in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7 p. 289)
The Jesus of the Bible says it is he who judges in heaven: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have we not cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity” (Matthew 22-23). By letting Joseph Smith share in God’s final judgment, Mormonism denies the judgment throne of Jesus Christ.
Denial of Jesus
Mormonism truly denies the Jesus of the Bible, because they deny the essentials of his identity. Just like the people of Jesus’ day, the Mormons deny the historic reality of who Jesus really was and what he did.”
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I read this post twice but don’t see what it has to do with either JW’s or Mormons. Would you mind explaining what it has to do with Mormons?
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Generally speaking, there is the belief that a) Jesus is a created being and b) He is not God. Sorry for the confusion.
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